Happy Festivus 2006 Tech Predictions
Dec 30

Joel on JavaSchools. Move on :)

Java, Tech Add comments

Joel is at it again with The Perils of Java Schools.

It is great to think that you are high and mightly because you can pack() and unpack() your way out of a paper bag, or that you love crazy pointer arithmetic.

These days, I want to develop with developers who can deliver business applications to our users.

It drove me nuts that my CSci program taught me how to write my own database from scratch, but didn’t teach me how to use Oracle well. If you needed me to write an OS from scratch… I was your man!

I had to go to industry to get the skills that truly matter to me now.

This isn’t to say that you don’t need anything from these courses, but they are far from required. There are 3 or 4 developers who I truly think are geniuses (that I have worked with). You know these guys. They get done the work that 100 others could maybe do. 3 of the 4 didn’t have CSci degrees. The other seemed to focus on music, art, and biography of all things.

There is room for different programs at college, but lets not get on our high horse.

Isn’t Joel whipping out crappy VB programs anyway? Not exactly amazing algo’s using the power of LISP is it? Have you checked out FogBugz? ;)

240 Responses to “Joel on JavaSchools. Move on :)”

  1. Brian McCallister Says:

    The point he was making wasn’t to not *use* java, but that it is a poor language for teaching the hard CS concepts.

    I didn’t study CS at Uni, but I agree with a lot of his points just based on self-study.

    -Brian

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    In regards to your comment about using Oracle — college shouldn’t be a trade school. And on top of that CompSci people shouldn’t really be touching a database too much beyond installing mysql to do mockups on their local workstation.

    You do get props for mentioning the constant “FogX products are so much better than anything else” that occurs in every article of his. Its a pretty formulistic “I’ll write a controversial article that drives traffic to my website.” And by the way I’ve never known anyone to use a single one of his.

    Joel’s book, however, was a really good collection of articles. Far better than Paul “BTW do you know I sold my company to Yahoo for MILLIONS!” Graham.

  4. Dennis Says:

    I’m totally self-taught. I learned how to use SQL-Server pretty well. Now I’m going through SQLite sourcecode to learn how databases are implemented. Guess which is easier?

    I’m also getting books on writing compilers, and working through books like SICP. I’m doing all this because after eight years in this business, I’m finding myself annoyingly limited to writing database frontend business apps, instead of doing really cool stuff that advances the state of the art. I’m figuring out I’m a so-so programmer, not the great programmer I aspire to be. I’m wishing I got a hardcore CS degree instead of fooling around with anthropology.

    Maybe it’s also annoying to go through all the effort to get that CS degree, then get out in the real world and find you still have a bunch of stuff to learn. But believe me, learning the trade-school stuff is easy, and you’ll have to keep doing it your entire career anyway. Learning real CS on your own, that’s a lot harder.

  5. Alasdair Allan Says:

    I think you’re missing Joel’s point, the point of a degree is to teach you to think, and how to learn, not necessarily to teach you practical skills. Purely vocational stuff doesn’t necessarily belong in a University degree unless it helps you learn to think. Once you actually understand how to learn, actually picking up the vocational stuff isn’t that hard.

    See, http://www.babilim.co.uk/blog/2006/01/building-blocks-of-software.html

  6. Erik Engbrecht Says:

    I thought I was the only person who had to write a database in his database systems class, and only got a cursory look at Oracle.

    I thought the class was one of the best I took and made operating systems a cakewalk afterwards..

    Anyway, the point is, what good does it do to know how to write a DBMS?

    Well, I had been on the job about 4 months when I started arguing with an Oracle guru about optimizing a pretty complicated query. He knew about a million times more information about Oracle that I did (still does today). But I had written a query optimizer back in college. I had done detailed query analysis by hand. He knew how to make Oracle bend to his will, and what was “good” and “bad” in a query plan, but I could actually write an optimal query plan that he never could have generated (and eventually used hints to make Oracle use it).

    The point? “Vocational” or “Industry” knowledge only goes so far. Writing a DBMS or an OS or a compiler gives you a deep understanding of the technology that transcends versions and vendors. I makes you more able to see through the crap advice the commonly gets posted on the internet, the sales bullshit spewed by vendors, and more capable of finding a solution w/o help or documentation, but you know how it *should* work.

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