Comments on: Upgrade the Web: Time for UDP in the browser? http://almaer.com/blog/upgrade-the-web-time-for-udp-in-the-browser blogging about life, the universe, and everything tech Sat, 08 Sep 2012 07:06:53 -0700 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Alex Cox http://almaer.com/blog/upgrade-the-web-time-for-udp-in-the-browser/comment-page-1#comment-48619 Alex Cox Fri, 18 Nov 2011 18:38:48 +0000 http://almaer.com/blog/upgrade-the-web-time-for-udp-in-the-browser#comment-48619 As a web developer I'd love to have access to UDP in the client to do client-side reporting, just as it's being used currently to do server-side metrics with projects like https://github.com/etsy/statsd As a web developer I’d love to have access to UDP in the client to do client-side reporting, just as it’s being used currently to do server-side metrics with projects like https://github.com/etsy/statsd

]]> By: Robert Eaglestone http://almaer.com/blog/upgrade-the-web-time-for-udp-in-the-browser/comment-page-1#comment-46943 Robert Eaglestone Thu, 12 Aug 2010 16:37:54 +0000 http://almaer.com/blog/upgrade-the-web-time-for-udp-in-the-browser#comment-46943 UDP would be a win-win. The world already has a protocol to marshall packets via UDP: it's called TFTP. It's simple, it works, and it's used to bootstrap routers remotely. It prevents direct access to system resources; in short, it has so few functions that it's quite secure. And because it's UDP it's F A S T. UDP would be a win-win. The world already has a protocol to marshall packets via UDP: it’s called TFTP. It’s simple, it works, and it’s used to bootstrap routers remotely. It prevents direct access to system resources; in short, it has so few functions that it’s quite secure. And because it’s UDP it’s F A S T.

]]> By: zaloz http://almaer.com/blog/upgrade-the-web-time-for-udp-in-the-browser/comment-page-1#comment-45863 zaloz Fri, 04 Dec 2009 18:17:00 +0000 http://almaer.com/blog/upgrade-the-web-time-for-udp-in-the-browser#comment-45863 As Alexandre Rafalovitch sais, UDP is as important as TCP. And there's more than TCP/UDP in the internet, there's a specific protocol for streaming/VoIP.. In my opinion, the main advantage of using UDP on the web is AJAX. Does anyone had used Wikipedia's search bar? The one located behind the logo. It makes a transfer every time you type in a character. So you need to start a TCP connection, transferring 3 packets for this single purpouse, then the character itself, and finally closing the connection with 2 more packets.. over and over!! Another good advantage could be server-to-client connection, or server-side events. This means that the server could send new data to clients without them to request it. (Get new post as they are sended by the autor, tweeter..) As Alexandre Rafalovitch sais, UDP is as important as TCP. And there’s more than TCP/UDP in the internet, there’s a specific protocol for streaming/VoIP..

In my opinion, the main advantage of using UDP on the web is AJAX.
Does anyone had used Wikipedia’s search bar? The one located behind the logo. It makes a transfer every time you type in a character. So you need to start a TCP connection, transferring 3 packets for this single purpouse, then the character itself, and finally closing the connection with 2 more packets.. over and over!!

Another good advantage could be server-to-client connection, or server-side events. This means that the server could send new data to clients without them to request it. (Get new post as they are sended by the autor, tweeter..)

]]> By: Alexandre Rafalovitch http://almaer.com/blog/upgrade-the-web-time-for-udp-in-the-browser/comment-page-1#comment-38030 Alexandre Rafalovitch Wed, 26 Mar 2008 18:13:46 +0000 http://almaer.com/blog/upgrade-the-web-time-for-udp-in-the-browser#comment-38030 Just a couple of points: 1) Flash is working on UDP support, as part of project Pacifica (they need it for VOIP and, maybe, youtube). So, this is not just a wishful thinking. 2) UDP is used by DNS and many other short communication protocols. It is more suitable for the niches, but it is not useless (@Ignacio). Just look at /etc/services, they list a good number of UDP endpoints. Just a couple of points:
1) Flash is working on UDP support, as part of project Pacifica (they need it for VOIP and, maybe, youtube). So, this is not just a wishful thinking.
2) UDP is used by DNS and many other short communication protocols. It is more suitable for the niches, but it is not useless (@Ignacio). Just look at /etc/services, they list a good number of UDP endpoints.

]]> By: Ignacio Coloma http://almaer.com/blog/upgrade-the-web-time-for-udp-in-the-browser/comment-page-1#comment-38029 Ignacio Coloma Wed, 26 Mar 2008 13:45:08 +0000 http://almaer.com/blog/upgrade-the-web-time-for-udp-in-the-browser#comment-38029 UDP has existed for some years, nobody has used it and I don't think it's casual. I have been involved in some hard-wire communication projects and it's very rare the case where you can say that order is not important. I'm not talking about reliability, but about ordering. Imagine the typical messaging system: a chat, a stock trade system, etc. Now, suppose a network cut that lasts for thirty seconds, where messages get accumulated during this period, and delivered NOT IN THE ORIGINAL ORDER to the other side. The only case I have studied of where UDP was used implemented their own mini version of TCP for serializing packet arrival. That's Uncool. UDP has existed for some years, nobody has used it and I don’t think it’s casual. I have been involved in some hard-wire communication projects and it’s very rare the case where you can say that order is not important. I’m not talking about reliability, but about ordering.

Imagine the typical messaging system: a chat, a stock trade system, etc. Now, suppose a network cut that lasts for thirty seconds, where messages get accumulated during this period, and delivered NOT IN THE ORIGINAL ORDER to the other side.

The only case I have studied of where UDP was used implemented their own mini version of TCP for serializing packet arrival. That’s Uncool.

]]> By: Jon Breen http://almaer.com/blog/upgrade-the-web-time-for-udp-in-the-browser/comment-page-1#comment-38027 Jon Breen Wed, 26 Mar 2008 09:42:53 +0000 http://almaer.com/blog/upgrade-the-web-time-for-udp-in-the-browser#comment-38027 Huh? Isn't UDP part of IP? TCP/IP encompasses datagrams and connection-orientated transports of do I have to go back to CompSci lectures? Please correct this schoolboy/pre-grad error Huh? Isn’t UDP part of IP? TCP/IP encompasses datagrams and connection-orientated transports of do I have to go back to CompSci lectures? Please correct this schoolboy/pre-grad error

]]> By: Phill MV http://almaer.com/blog/upgrade-the-web-time-for-udp-in-the-browser/comment-page-1#comment-38021 Phill MV Tue, 25 Mar 2008 18:39:16 +0000 http://almaer.com/blog/upgrade-the-web-time-for-udp-in-the-browser#comment-38021 Sure, why not, but I don't think your problem is with your browser. As far as I can tell, plugins like Flash implement their own networking: "Note that Flash Player deploys the protocols directly, so server communication and file management will work while the SWF file runs in Flash Player locally outside the browser. This is ideal because the browser provides an interface that is often unnecessary or in conflict with the interface contained in the Flash application." http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flash/articles/local_network_playback_02.html So, for stuff like "livecasting" ala Justin tv or flash games, that's prolly a great idea, but one for Adobe to implement. For stuff like Youtube, which is streaming but not live, I usually want to watch the whole video, and so it's not so okay to drop some frames here and there. As such, I'm not sure that reimplementing TCP's reliability in the application layer is a step forward, per se. Turning to browser-only apps, I'm going to go on an uneducated bend here and say, if you're coding something in Ajax where the TCP overhead is your bottleneck, you're probably coding something _crazy_. Disclaimer: I could be wrong, have no professional experience in the area. Sure, why not, but I don’t think your problem is with your browser.

As far as I can tell, plugins like Flash implement their own networking:
“Note that Flash Player deploys the protocols directly, so server communication and file management will work while the SWF file runs in Flash Player locally outside the browser. This is ideal because the browser provides an interface that is often unnecessary or in conflict with the interface contained in the Flash application.”
http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flash/articles/local_network_playback_02.html

So, for stuff like “livecasting” ala Justin tv or flash games, that’s prolly a great idea, but one for Adobe to implement.

For stuff like Youtube, which is streaming but not live, I usually want to watch the whole video, and so it’s not so okay to drop some frames here and there. As such, I’m not sure that reimplementing TCP’s reliability in the application layer is a step forward, per se.

Turning to browser-only apps, I’m going to go on an uneducated bend here and say, if you’re coding something in Ajax where the TCP overhead is your bottleneck, you’re probably coding something _crazy_.

Disclaimer: I could be wrong, have no professional experience in the area.

]]> By: fdeweerdt http://almaer.com/blog/upgrade-the-web-time-for-udp-in-the-browser/comment-page-1#comment-38020 fdeweerdt Tue, 25 Mar 2008 18:14:31 +0000 http://almaer.com/blog/upgrade-the-web-time-for-udp-in-the-browser#comment-38020 Migrating to HTTP over UDP at first would make more sense wouldn't it? http://www.cs.technion.ac.il/Courses/Computer-Networks-Lab/projects/spring2000/http_udp/index.htm Migrating to HTTP over UDP at first would make more sense wouldn’t it?
http://www.cs.technion.ac.il/Courses/Computer-Networks-Lab/projects/spring2000/http_udp/index.htm

]]> By: Henry http://almaer.com/blog/upgrade-the-web-time-for-udp-in-the-browser/comment-page-1#comment-38018 Henry Tue, 25 Mar 2008 17:23:17 +0000 http://almaer.com/blog/upgrade-the-web-time-for-udp-in-the-browser#comment-38018 I for one will vouch for UDP, as it is the most effective protocol for communicating between a team of mobile robot agents. I like its attitude: send things fast, no worries if it doesn't get there. Very interesting to think it extended into the browser world.... I for one will vouch for UDP, as it is the most effective protocol for communicating between a team of mobile robot agents. I like its attitude: send things fast, no worries if it doesn’t get there.

Very interesting to think it extended into the browser world….

]]> By: Evan http://almaer.com/blog/upgrade-the-web-time-for-udp-in-the-browser/comment-page-1#comment-38017 Evan Tue, 25 Mar 2008 17:10:18 +0000 http://almaer.com/blog/upgrade-the-web-time-for-udp-in-the-browser#comment-38017 I can't see how this would work well with current firewalls and NAT systems, but there must be some way. It would probably have to start in Flash: "open this firewall port for higher quality YouTube". I can’t see how this would work well with current firewalls and NAT systems, but there must be some way.

It would probably have to start in Flash: “open this firewall port for higher quality YouTube”.

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