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Mar 10

RE: Ivy is everything Maven should be

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Colin Sampaleanu claims that Ivy is everything Maven should have/could have been 2.5 years ago.

While I understand where he is coming from, and I think Ivy is a nice piece of software, I have to stand up for Maven again.

Even though, I know that I will get bashed for it.

Handling dependencies is a very nice thing. And, having transitive closures on those dependencies is going to be great to have in m2.

However, this isn’t the only part of a build, nor of Maven. Maven is my build container. It takes care of so much that I don’t have to worry about, and I haven’t had to get deep into Jelly code, like others have expressed.

m2 is not going to come rushing out there, and you can’t blame the authors! They are going to learn from their mistakes, and my guess is that when m2 finally does rear its head, we will be impressed.

Also, in related news, Vincent Massol is writing a Maven book for O’Reilly.

disclaimer: just because I have had a good experience with Maven does not mean that I am trying to ram it down YOUR throats, and I understand if you don’t chose to use it :)

198 Responses to “RE: Ivy is everything Maven should be”

  1. Colin Sampaleanu Says:

    Dion,

    Keep in mind I qualified this as “2.5 years ago”. What I was trying to say was that in my opinion, the Maven guys really picked the wrong problems to tackle first. Proper transitive dependency handling is just such an incredibly important thing in a multi-project build, it’s just inconceivable to me that 3 years later Maven still doesn’t do it, while people have worked on all sorts of plugins which (I think) are less important.

  2. Colin Sampaleanu Says:

    Additionally, as an agile proponent, I simply don’t buy the argument that it’s ok for the Maven 2 people to go shut themselves off somewhere for 2 years to build the next ‘perfect’ version. That’s the way that you ensure that when your product comes out it’s irrelevant. Fundamentally, I believe you try to learn from your mistakes, think about your requirements on an ongoing basis, release early, release carefully, and release often. I would have killed for an Ivy 2 years ago, or a Maven 2 that had only the features in Ivy, forgetting all the other stuff…

  3. eu Says:

    Colin, why don’t you give a try to maven2 then? It is already there btw.

  4. Todd Huss Says:

    Dion, I totally agree. I dig Maven but I understand when people opt not to use it. What bugs me is when I blog about something I like about Maven and then I get comments about how Maven sucks and I should be using Ant with macros and includes. A lot of negative energy out there about Maven and I feel a little stupid sometimes because I don’t really understand why.

  5. Rick Hightower Says:

    Perspective of a user…

    I use Maven quite a bit. I really like it.

    I was hired by a company to write a series of Maven plugins. I had to use Jelly. Jelly was not the greatest, but I got through it. I created Jelly tags so I could keep most of my logic in Java and avoided Jelly like a plague.

    I’ve modified existing plugins as well.

    If I recall, Maven before 1.0 was pretty rough. There was a learning curve to overcome, and the docs were not that useful. This is one reason Maven stick in people’s craw.

    Now the docs are better, their are plenty of Wiki tutorials, etc.

    Maven still gets a bad wrap because *some* plugins are difficult to use and provide poor documentation. There are plenty of times when the only way to know how to use a plugin was to go read the Jelly code.

    I think the concepts behind Maven are sound, and the plugin architecture makes a lot of sense. I look forward to Maven 2.0 when all of the plugins will be written in BeanShell, and you can also write them in Groovy.

    BTW I do a lot of consulting and training. Whenever I do a training class or consulting engagement, I provide free lunch one day, and explain the greatness of Maven (with slides, picture drawing, and arm waving). I know I have personally spread Maven to 30+ fortune 500 companies.

  6. Martijn Dashorst Says:

    I also see over and over again people hating Maven for what it was more than one year ago. I have found Maven to be very stable, and comfortable to use since the beta-8 release in 2004.

    The plugin documentation could be better in most places, but they are getting better documentation everytime I look at them.

    Brett also did a great job converting the Maven website into something comprehensible. The number of posts on the mailinglist with references to the User’s manual has dropped significantly.

    The lack of transitive dependencies and support for some distinction between build-time, test-time and run-time dependencies *is* one of the major gripes IMO. But it still is better than putting unversioned jar files in a lib directory and having to synch that everytime in CVS.

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