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Mar 07

GeronoSpring: Developers can use Spring and claim EJB 3

EJB, Java, Open Source, Tech Add comments

One of the controversial points of EJB 3, is whether it should be backwards compatible. The programming model is so different, that it hardly seems right to force 2.1 compliance, but rather, make that an option.

In fact, one of the instant poll questions at TheServerSide Symposium backed this up:

How do you think the EJB 3 spec should handle backwards compatibility (e.g. to allow for a Spring compliant version)

1) Make EJB 2.1 support and below MANDATORY
2) Make EJB 2.1 support and below OPTIONAL (a check box for vendors to compete)

The results came back as ~80% of the crowd wanting this to be optional. Linda DeMichiel mentioned on the panel that she did hear the community here, although I do realise that she has other groups wanting other things. Kudos to her for being the spec lead ;)

Many people at the show laid their point down:

Tim Dawson: Vendors don’t care that the spec enforces backwards compatibility, they care about which server vendors do!

Hear, hear,

We also know that many dev groups need to be able to say “I am using EJB compliant software”. This is from vendors to ISVs to large IT organizations. It is a reality. And, although a couple of vendors told me at the show:

Spring can support the EJB 3 annotations, so they will be source-code compliant…

I think this is short sited. You can’t say “Oh, well we aren’t EJB 3 certified, but we do grok it. Promise”.

So, what if the EJB spec does continue to enforce EJB 2.1 compatibility?

I am not as worried about this anymore. Of course, I would love to see the likes of Spring able to support EJB 3, but there is a good solution if it isn’t the case. Geronimo/Spring integration.

What if Geronimo had first class integration with Spring? Spring Beans/modules could automatically be loaded up with no need for anything else. There are many, many ways in which the two could integrate, and I have heard of some very exciting possibilities from the teams.

What this does, is that it changes the game. We can get the best of all worlds.

If you work in a place that requires “application servers” and the like, you can just use Geronimo for that need… which will be a fully compliant EJB 3, J2EE 5, server.

So, I predict that:

Geronimo will become the server to run the Spring framework within.

Imagine it! EJB 3 view on your Spring modules! No need for Spring to have to implement the spec at all!

11 Responses to “GeronoSpring: Developers can use Spring and claim EJB 3”

  1. Gavin King Says:

    There are other stakeholders in EJB than Java developers. Most people at TSSS don’t have to maintain existing appliciations, and don’t seem to appreciate the importance of things like migration paths, etc.

    The EJB spec must be acceptable to *all* stakeholders, including those with longer term concerns than the average application developer.

    Your comments about Spring seem incoherent in view of the fact that you are such a huge booster of JDO vs Hibernate because of its standards compliance. If a standard approach is *so* important for entity objects, surely it is even more important for the layer *above*!

    What you are describing is simply a non-standard application server, that offers really no significant value above the standard. I can’t for a second see this taking off. Non-standard solutions are only viable when they offer really great extra value over the standard (as Hibernate did compared to 2.1 entity beans).

    I am truly mystified at the fact that the Spring guys have not embraced EJB3, since it gives them everything they need to build a very nice application framework on top of some very simple building blocks. It’s not like EJB3 session beans are some enormously complex specification that imposes all kinds of arbitrary constraints on implementors (like some other specs that are floating around). Indeed, it is designed to be as easy to implement as possible.

  2. Dion Says:

    Hi mate -

    A couple of things:

    a) I am not a proponent of ‘JDO vs. Hibernate’. We use Hibernate in my applications, and it is a great solution. I thank you and the team for that.

    b) The Spring guys can’t ‘embrace’ EJB 3, since it is a subset of their world, and they don’t have a way to implement it themselves. I am sure they will embrace it in the sense of: supporting it at a source level, and integrating with it (like they do now with EJB 2.x and below).

    The solution also allows people a nice migration path from using Spring now, to when EJB 3 comes out and they can drop it in an EJB container.

    In fact, if Spring was baked so closely into the appserver then you could choose to be as standard, or NOT standard as you want. If you just want to drop a jar file that has Spring beans and applicationContext*.xmls and it will deploy and expose itself in other ways. Else, you can deploy it as pure EJB components. Or, a mix.

    I think that Spring adds a lot to what we get with EJB 3 though (as it stands now). They have a lot of value adds (including AOP support, enhanced configuration, and the stack on top).

    Who knows what will come out w/ the final EJB 3 spec though, and I think the community is open.

    Dion

  3. Juergen Hoeller Says:

    [gavin]I am truly mystified at the fact that the Spring guys have not embraced EJB3, since it gives them everything they need to build a very nice application framework on top of some very simple building blocks.[/gavin]

    Gavin, Spring will of course happily work in conjunction with EJB3: provide access to EJB3 Session Beans or the EJB3 EntityManager, serve as backbone for fine-granular objects behind EJB3 Session Beans facades. It will work with EJB3 just like it currently works with EJB 1.1 or 2.x; additionally, it will explicitly support the EJB3 EntityManager as data access strategy.

    There are reasons why Spring does not build on EJB3 as a cornerstone. For example, one of the goals of Spring is to not require JNDI or JTA unless there is an actual need for them: Many web applications and in particular standalone applications simply don’t need a global registry or a distributed transaction coordinator. EJB3, on the other hand, builds on JNDI and JTA as core underlying services.

    But that’s not the most important factor. The main reason why Spring can’t fully support EJB3 Session Beans is deployment: EJB JARs? providing a separate class loader? IIOP remoting endpoints for remote Session Beans? remote transaction propagation? remote Stateful Session Beans? Sorry, that’s not what Spring is about. Spring always runs locally within *existing* deployment units and existing class loaders.

    Of course Spring will be able to support the EJB3 programming model directly, to some degree: it can auto-detect EJB3 Stateless Session Bean annotations in Spring-defined beans – and apply injection of JNDI objects, transactional proxying, or instance pooling. But everything else is the job of an application server, not of an application framework (or lightweight container).

    Spring is essentially a lightweight container for *local* *stateless* POJO service objects within an application, adapting to any environment (whether J2EE or standalone). It provides rich and flexible services for such POJO services, allowing for a variety of definition formats, transaction demarcation styles, etc. And it integrates with whatever persistence strategy you prefer. EJB3’s focus is significantly different.

    Finally, Spring is designed to provide the full richness of its services on JDK >= 1.3 and J2EE >= 1.3. Which means that it happily works on the likes of WebSphere 4-6 or WebLogic 7-9, for example – here and now, using the same component model and configuration format as in any other environment, and integrating with the facilities of the particular server. Without conflicting with the EJB 1.1/2.x containers there.

    It’s funny that you talk about maintaining existing applications and migration paths. Many Spring applications run on current or old versions of WebSphere and WebLogic, without any hassle. Spring can also be retrofitted into existing applications easily. EJB3, on the other hand, forces users to upgrade to J2EE 1.5 servers – which is distant future for many WebSphere and WebLogic users.

  4. Dion Hinchcliffe's Blog - Musings and Ruminations on Building Great Systems Says:

    Will Spring become the Java Ubercontainer?

  5. Dion Hinchcliffe's Blog - Musings and Ruminations on Building Great Systems Says:

    Will Spring become the Java Ubercontainer?

  6. Dion Hinchcliffe's Blog - Musings and Ruminations on Building Great Systems Says:

    Will Spring become the Java Ubercontainer?

  7. Dion Hinchcliffe's Blog - Musings and Ruminations on Building Great Systems Says:

    Will Spring become the Java Ubercontainer?

  8. Dion Hinchcliffe's Blog - Musings and Ruminations on Building Great Systems Says:

    Will Spring become the Java Ubercontainer?

  9. Dion Hinchcliffe's Blog - Musings and Ruminations on Building Great Systems Says:

    Will Spring become the Java Ubercontainer?

  10. Dion Hinchcliffe's Blog - Musings and Ruminations on Building Great Systems Says:

    Will Spring become the Java Ubercontainer?

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