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Feb 22

Drinking the Ribena rather than Koolaid

Ruby, Tech, Web Frameworks Add comments

There is yet another blog discussion about Ruby on Rails vs. Java web frameworks.

I think you find this type of discussion all over with the generic version being:

Technology X is simpler than Y so it either:

  • Is too slow
  • Is TOO simple
  • It doesn’t scale
  • It’s dad got beaten up by my dad

We are getting some of that at the moment. David Geary of JavaServer Faces fame (and fellow NoFluffer), and Matt Raible started on the rants.

Then the Rails creator, David Hannson came back at them.

It is interesting that David isn’t sure that showing the scaffolding piece in his demo was a good thing. Scaffolding lets you do a quick “there is my database, give me active record access to it now please”. You will end up with actions/views for your model at this point, which is nice for getting started / prototyping, or for simple “Naked Object” access for admins. Even David admits thats it probably shouldn’t be used in ‘real projects’.

So, my view on this?

Is Rails too simple?

It is simple in a good way. You can get started very quickly. You can incrementally tweak your architecture and extend Rails where needed BUT NOT BEFORE. I can start with scaffolding and then move to handling the model more myself. Basically everything is there for you to hook in.

Is Rails too slow?

Although I haven’t had the pleasure in deploying a Rails solution to a high end site, I have never had any problems, sites that run it are speedy and consistent, and there is NO REASON why Rails would force a slow application. Of course, a badly developed application that uses Rails could easily be slow (as with everything).

Can Rails Scale?

Web sites can easily scale as long as you have written your application in a way that can handle scalability. Ruby, and/or Rails, has nothing implicit about it which says “this can’t scale”. I know that the Java camp tends to think that it is the only scalable solution for “enterprise” apps, but it isn’t ;)

Rails isn’t the be all and end all of web frameworks. There are always going to be pro’s and con’s between two frameworks. I personally sometimes like rich components (a la tapestry), although there is nothing stopping you from building these components that you could reuse in Rails.

341 Responses to “Drinking the Ribena rather than Koolaid”

  1. Matt Raible Says:
    February 22nd, 2005 at 11:34 am

    I believe my post was more of an observation than a rant. I know better than to bash a technology that I hardly know anything about.

    I’ve seen a lot of bloggers put down technologies they know little about. It’s unhealthy and likely fear-based because they’re afraid their current knowledge is for naught. You’ll notice I don’t bash on the various Java web frameworks as much as I used to. ;-)

    I do have a new criteria for choosing a Java-based web framework though -> is there a book written about it? If so, I’m interested because the market is interested. Same goes for Rails – and I’m glad to see there’s one in the works.

  2. Matt Raible Says:
    February 22nd, 2005 at 11:34 am

    I believe my post was more of an observation than a rant. I know better than to bash a technology that I hardly know anything about.

    I’ve seen a lot of bloggers put down technologies they know little about. It’s unhealthy and likely fear-based because they’re afraid their current knowledge is for naught. You’ll notice I don’t bash on the various Java web frameworks as much as I used to. ;-)

    I do have a new criteria for choosing a Java-based web framework though -> is there a book written about it? If so, I’m interested because the market is interested. Same goes for Rails – and I’m glad to see there’s one in the works.

  3. Dion Says:
    February 22nd, 2005 at 11:40 am

    Hey. I didn’t mean to imply that your reply was the rant!

    D

  4. Dion Says:
    February 22nd, 2005 at 11:40 am

    Hey. I didn’t mean to imply that your reply was the rant!

    D

  5. Michael Koziarski Says:
    February 22nd, 2005 at 5:08 pm

    Hey Dion,

    I’m also interested in this phenomenon and wrote about it last night:

    http://www.koziarski.net/archives/2005/02/22/java-developers-and-rails

    The ‘can’t scale’ argument is one thing that really annoys me though, ’scale’ on it’s own means *nothing*. Are we talking about scaling the team that works on the application, scaling the number of users, scaling the number of installed sites? etc. etc. etc.

    “Can’t Scale” is something we hear from the vendors, but lets not stoop to their level when discussing amongst ourselves.

  6. Michael Koziarski Says:
    February 22nd, 2005 at 5:08 pm

    Hey Dion,

    I’m also interested in this phenomenon and wrote about it last night:

    http://www.koziarski.net/archives/2005/02/22/java-developers-and-rails

    The ‘can’t scale’ argument is one thing that really annoys me though, ’scale’ on it’s own means *nothing*. Are we talking about scaling the team that works on the application, scaling the number of users, scaling the number of installed sites? etc. etc. etc.

    “Can’t Scale” is something we hear from the vendors, but lets not stoop to their level when discussing amongst ourselves.

  7. rlx Says:
    February 26th, 2005 at 5:32 am

    Having done extensive performance (scalability means different things to different people) testing on both Rails and a comparable Spring/Hibernate/JSP2 webapp (no one seems have have done any sort of benchmarking on Rails, or they simply don’t care, I don’t really know, but since benchmarking is what I do… :-)) I can say that Apache2/FastCGI/Rails is about… 8x slower than the comparable Tomcat/Spring/Hibernate/JSP2 solution. And that is with caching turned on in Rails (using Rails 0.9.5…)

    Quite frankly, 62 req/s on a Dual Opteron with 4GB of RAM rendering a simple view with no DB access is too… damn slow.

    That said, developing in Rails (well, Ruby, actually, but I don’t think anyone using Rails cares about the language that allows it to exist) is so much more fun than doing Java web programming.

    Down with deployment descriptors! And verbose crap. And repetition.

    Hmmm… I took the better performance in the end, mostly because I don’t have infinite amounts of money to throw at more hardware. But if I did, Rails would be it, though a lot of aspects are still… very immature in it.

    Rails is really nice, but the hype isn’t warranted. Most of the hype seems to be coming from the PHP world anyway, and it’s pretty easy to see why.

  8. rlx Says:
    February 26th, 2005 at 5:32 am

    Having done extensive performance (scalability means different things to different people) testing on both Rails and a comparable Spring/Hibernate/JSP2 webapp (no one seems have have done any sort of benchmarking on Rails, or they simply don’t care, I don’t really know, but since benchmarking is what I do… :-)) I can say that Apache2/FastCGI/Rails is about… 8x slower than the comparable Tomcat/Spring/Hibernate/JSP2 solution. And that is with caching turned on in Rails (using Rails 0.9.5…)

    Quite frankly, 62 req/s on a Dual Opteron with 4GB of RAM rendering a simple view with no DB access is too… damn slow.

    That said, developing in Rails (well, Ruby, actually, but I don’t think anyone using Rails cares about the language that allows it to exist) is so much more fun than doing Java web programming.

    Down with deployment descriptors! And verbose crap. And repetition.

    Hmmm… I took the better performance in the end, mostly because I don’t have infinite amounts of money to throw at more hardware. But if I did, Rails would be it, though a lot of aspects are still… very immature in it.

    Rails is really nice, but the hype isn’t warranted. Most of the hype seems to be coming from the PHP world anyway, and it’s pretty easy to see why.

  9. Brian McCallister Says:
    February 28th, 2005 at 9:09 am

    Hmm, that is odd, I get better performance than 62 reqs/second on pages without db hits and caching on. Can you post your configs and apps used for benchmarking?

  10. Brian McCallister Says:
    February 28th, 2005 at 9:09 am

    Hmm, that is odd, I get better performance than 62 reqs/second on pages without db hits and caching on. Can you post your configs and apps used for benchmarking?

  11. Michael Mayr Says:
    February 28th, 2005 at 11:07 am

    I wouldn’t be surprised if your rails app was eight times slower than a comparable java app. In fact ruby is an interpreter language while java runs at close to c speed. The heavier your app is on the processing side and the more load you put on it, the likelier it is that the java app will be much faster. But that only really matters if you’ve got a very popular side. For small things rails should be sufficient.

  12. TJ Vanderpoel Says:
    February 28th, 2005 at 12:38 pm

    I’ll have to beg to differ. As far as scalability, apache with fcgi certainly isn’t the best option, for rails. In our environment we have one lighttpd process serving requests in a round-robin fashion to from 10 to 100 fastcgi rails listeners. We move anywhere from 300 req/second to 1000 req/second with a dual opteron webserver and the fastcgi listeners can be well in back of the webserver. The only feature i’d like to see added to lighttpd is to be able to add fastcgi listeners on the fly, currently you have to restart the webserver to add listeners. Nonetheless, if you’d talked to rails developers you’d have learned lighttpd is the recommended hosting platform for production applications, as it takes care of many of the speed, and all of the scalability issues.

  13. TJ Vanderpoel Says:
    February 28th, 2005 at 12:38 pm

    I’ll have to beg to differ. As far as scalability, apache with fcgi certainly isn’t the best option, for rails. In our environment we have one lighttpd process serving requests in a round-robin fashion to from 10 to 100 fastcgi rails listeners. We move anywhere from 300 req/second to 1000 req/second with a dual opteron webserver and the fastcgi listeners can be well in back of the webserver. The only feature i’d like to see added to lighttpd is to be able to add fastcgi listeners on the fly, currently you have to restart the webserver to add listeners. Nonetheless, if you’d talked to rails developers you’d have learned lighttpd is the recommended hosting platform for production applications, as it takes care of many of the speed, and all of the scalability issues.

  14. Fernando Says:
    February 28th, 2005 at 10:10 pm

    I really like Ruby (more than Java actually), but I don’t see how a Ruby app can compete in performance/scalability with a Java app. The Ruby interpreter does not (yet) even support native threads.

  15. Fernando Says:
    February 28th, 2005 at 10:10 pm

    I really like Ruby (more than Java actually), but I don’t see how a Ruby app can compete in performance/scalability with a Java app. The Ruby interpreter does not (yet) even support native threads.

  16. Kevin Says:
    March 1st, 2005 at 2:15 pm

    since we’re being subjective, i’ll throw in my two cents :)

    every experience I’ve ever had with java is full of extremely painful slowness. Every experience with ruby-on-rails (granted, most sites aren’t being heavily pounded yet), has been very fast.

  17. Kevin Says:
    March 1st, 2005 at 2:15 pm

    since we’re being subjective, i’ll throw in my two cents :)

    every experience I’ve ever had with java is full of extremely painful slowness. Every experience with ruby-on-rails (granted, most sites aren’t being heavily pounded yet), has been very fast.

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  20. heretic Says:
    March 7th, 2005 at 5:50 am

    Fernando: ruby does’nt depend on threads to be fast.

    One of the great things about FastCGIs design is that it avoids having to worry about threads. see the website.

    A simplistic explanation is that a Fastcgi worker = a tomcat thread.

    (and no, that isn’t expensive memorywise, because we are talking about a ruby process rather than a JVM).

  21. Bob Evans Says:
    October 18th, 2005 at 3:45 pm

    Ruby is interpreted, but a lot of its library calls are native c calls, so they are quite fast. Doing numerical stuff in ruby is almost exactly as fast as c because it is c. Depends on what type of heavy computing you’re doing whether ruby is slow or not.

  22. Bob Evans Says:
    October 18th, 2005 at 3:45 pm

    Ruby is interpreted, but a lot of its library calls are native c calls, so they are quite fast. Doing numerical stuff in ruby is almost exactly as fast as c because it is c. Depends on what type of heavy computing you’re doing whether ruby is slow or not.

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